Advisory Council on the Environment

Confirmed Minutes of the 56th Meeting of the Advisory Council on the Environment held on 27 October 1998 at 2:30 p.m.


Mr. Peter H. Y. WONG, JP (Chairman)
Mr. Barrie COOK
Professor Anthony HEDLEY
Professor Peter HILLS
Professor LAM Kin-che
Dr. LEONG Che-hung
Dr. NG Cho-nam
Mr. Otto L. T. POON
Miss Alex YAU
Mr. Plato YIP
Mr. Danny TSUI (Secretary)

Absent with Apologies:

Mr. CHAN Kwok-wai, JP
Mr. Clement CHEN
Mr. Paul C. H. FAN
Dr. HO Kin-chung
Mr. Joseph LAU Man-wai
Mr. LIN Chaan-ming
Mr. PAO Ping-wing, JP
Ms Iris TAM
Mr. Michael J. D. RUSHWORTH
Mr. Tan Teng Huat


In Attendance:
Mr. Kim SALKELD Deputy Secretary for Planning, Environment & Lands (Environment) (DS(E), PELB)
Mr. Rob LAW Director of Environmental Protection (DEP)
Mr. S P LAU Assistant Director (Conservation), Agriculture and Fisheries Department (AFD) (AD(Cons), AFD)
Dr. Regina CHING Acting Assistant Director of Health (Atg. AD, DH)
Mr. David CHAN Principal Information Officer, Environmental Protection Department (EPD) (PIO, EPD)
Ms S M HUNG Assistant Secretary for Planning, Environment & Lands (Environment) (AS(E)6, PELB)
Miss Cora SO Executive Officer, Planning, Environment & Lands Bureau (Environment) (EO(E), PELB)
In Attendance for Agenda Item 4 :
Mr. Benny WONG Assistant Director (Waste Facilities), EPD (AD(WF), EPD)
Mr. W S TONG Business Director (Management), Housing Department (HD) (BD(M), HD)
Mr. K S YING Acting Assistant Director (Management)1, HD (Atg. AD(M)1, HD)
In Attendance for Agenda Item 5 :
Mr. K S CHAN Principal Environmental Protection Officer (Noise Management & Policy Group), EPD (PEPO (NM&PG), EPD)
Mr. Simon LI Chief Planning Officer, CAD (CPO, CED)
Mr. Benjamin FONG Senior Evaluation Officer, CAD (SEO, CAD)
In Attendance for Agenda Item 6 :
Mr. Howard CHAN Principal Assistant Secretary (Environment)1, PELB (PAS(E)1, PELB)
Dr. Alain LAM Principal Environmental Protection Officer (Air Policy Group), EPD (PEPO(APG), EPD)
Mr. C M POON Senior Occupational Hygienist, Labour Department (SOH, LD)
Dr. Sarah LIAO Managing Director, EHS Consultants Limited (MD, EHS)
Dr. L W YEE Consultant, EHS Consultants Limited (Consultant, EHS)
In Attendance for Agenda Item 7 :
Mr. Howard CHAN PAS(E)1, PELB
Mr. W C MOK Principal Environmental Protection Officer (Motor Vehicle), EPD (PEPO(MV), EPD)




The Chairman welcomed the representative of the Department of Health who stood in for her colleague who was on leave.
Agenda Item 1 : Confirmation of Minutes of the 55th Meeting held on 28 September 1998
2.As Members had no further comments, the minutes were confirmed.
Agenda Item 2 : Matters Arising
Para. 1 : Newly appointed ACE member
3.The Chairman announced that following Mr. Julian Barclay resignation, Mr. Edwin Lau of the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited had been appointed as a member of this Council with effect from 15 October 1998.
Para. 3 : Informal meeting between ACE and EAC
4.The Economic Services Bureau agreed to present a paper on energy policy for discussion at the November meeting.

Para. 4 : Stepped up monitoring of Chinese White Dolphins
5.Transport Department's reply was awaited.
Para. 5 : Joint meeting between ACE and EA Panel
6.The meeting was re-scheduled from 3 December 1998 to 11 December 1998. The Secretary would inform Members of the details in due course.

Para. 7 : Outcome of prosecutions against vessels trading illicit diesel oil
7.The Chairman informed Members that the trial of the diesel smuggling case on 17 - 18 July 1998 had been concluded with the following results :
(a) 3 crew members of the oil tanker with 155,000 litres of diesel onboard were sentenced to 6 to 8 months imprisonment;
(b) 2 crew members of a tug boat with 17,000 litres of diesel onboard were each sentenced to 12 months imprisonment; and
(c) 1 crew member of another tug boat with 18,000 litres of diesel onboard was fined $10,000 and sentenced to 7 months imprisonment suspended for 3 years.
Para. 9 : Invitation to ESB to send a representative to sit on ACE
8.A reply from ESB was still awaited.
Para. 50 : Briefing by Cheung Kong on Fung Lok Wai Development
9.Nine Members (including the Chairman) and the Secretary of this Council attended the briefing held on 16 October 1998. A Member commented that it would be more appropriate for Government-appointed Council Members to be briefed by a private developer at a regular Council meeting. The Chairman explained that under the circumstances he had considered it appropriate for the briefing to be held in Cheung Kong's office for the following reasons: it would be more convenient to show any models or plans; it would avoid creating a precedent to open a session at the request of every developer; and lastly, a government officer was present during the briefing and could ensure everything was fair.
Agenda Item 3 : Report of EIA Subcommittee
(ACE Paper 42/98 : Tsuen Wan Bay Further Reclamation, Area 35 - Engineering, Planning and Environmental Investigation)

10.The EIA Subcommittee Chairman reported that the EIA Subcommittee considered only one report in October. Members of the Subcommittee raised some queries which had been satisfactorily responded to by the project proponent.
11.Since no further queries were raised, the Subcommittee recommended and the Council agreed to endorse the report without conditions.
Agenda Item 4 : Report on Waste Recovery and Segregation in Public Housing Estates
(ACE Paper 43/98)

12.The Chairman welcomed AD(WF), EPD, BD(M), HD and AD(M)1, HD to the meeting and invited BD(M), HD to present the paper. AD(M)1, HD briefed Members on the existing practice on waste recovery and segregation in public housing estates, and on the future programmes including the Automatic Refuse Collection System (ARCS), which involved a suction chute system for segregated waste disposal.
13.The Chairman queried how to ensure refuse would be properly segregated at source. BD(M), HD explained that the refuse would be segregated manually by the contractors before being disposed into the refuse chutes. At the same time, separate bins for different kinds of refuse would be provided alternatively in each building for tenants' convenience to segregate their refuse. DEP pointed out that education was the crucial factor to enhance people's co-operation because if they were not willing to segregate their refuse, it would be useless even if the most convenient facilities were provided. Since education was a long-term process, he agreed that the implementation should be step by step, the contractors should continue the segregation in the mean time.
14.The Chairman followed up by asking what was being done in respect of education and how much had been spent on it. AD(M)1, HD replied that they were organising different campaigns as stated in the paper and arranging for young people to visit the recycling plants. He said that they were working on a comprehensive scheme with budget absorbed in the $1 million Estate Management Advisory Committee (EMAC) fund for each estate(including maintenance fee).
15.A Member asked how HK could ensure the segregated recyclable refuse be recycled and why there was a drop in the weight of recyclable refuse collected in 1998 as compared with 1997. AD(M)1, HD answered that the cleansing contractors would sell the collected aluminium cans and waste paper to the recycling contractors and, in return, report the figures back to HD. BD(M), HD then explained that the reported 2,163 tonnes of recyclable waste in 1998 (excluding metal scraps) were from 83 estates only. If taking into account all the estates, the figure would go up to around 6,000 tonnes for the period April to June 1998, and thus making up to about 24,000 tonnes for the whole year in 1998, which would be an 8% increase from 22,117 tonnes in 1997.
16.Noting that the Waste Recycling Scheme was not 'successfully' implemented in terms of cost effectiveness, a Member asked how long the education efforts would take effect on an estate to comply with the scheme, and whether there were any successful examples from other countries like Singapore. In reply, BD(M), HD said that they planned to provide three types of bins for the remaining estates by March 1999 and so far, the scheme was progressing in line with the schedule. Although he was not familiar with the situation in other countries, he anticipated Hong Kong would take about some years in transforming this environmental concept into people's actions. He supplemented that the primary purpose of the ARCS was to provide a more hygienic process in transferring refuse to promote healthy living.
17.In response to a Member's queries, AD(M)1, HD said that the revenue collected from selling the recyclable waste went to the cleansing contractors. He hoped that their education programmes would achieve more sustained effects in waste recycling. The Chairman suggested HD to consider funding green groups with good proposals to implement the campaigns.
18.A Member noted that the transportation cost and disposal cost to the landfills were very high and therefore disposal in China was not economical. He suggested that cost of landfill in HK should be considered and asked what the proportion of collected recyclable waste was out of the total municipal solid waste disposed to landfills. AD(WF), EPD replied that the proportion was about 1% which was small but was a good start. He said that the recycling industry in Hong Kong was operating at low profit margin. He said that the two major operating costs were rent for the operating sites and collection/treatment cost. Regarding rent, EPD and Lands Department had identified sites specifically for the recycling industry. When these sites were put out to tender, only recycling companies were allowed to tender so that they need not compete with other users. Up to the moment, one site for plastic waste and another for metal scrap were leased at Tuen Mun and Sheung Shui respectively. Regarding collection/treatment cost, they were approaching different parties to provide subsidised or free collection service, e.g. RSD would collect paper waste from schools for free. However, in the long run, it would depend on the "polluter pays" financial mechanism to maintain the viability of the recycling industry.
19.AD(WF), EPD supplemented that EPD was discussing with the ARCS design team in HD to incorporate features that would facilitate waste separation, e.g. enlarging the refuse room on each floor and providing separate bins there. The Member suggested that two refuse chutes could be built to separate the wet and dry waste to facilitate the segregation process.
20.A Member suggested that the Administration should start considering how to sell the recycled materials for commercial use when the volume of the materials collected went up to such an extent. Another Member said that several recyclers had already agreed to collect everything FoE would supply.
21.AD(M)1, HD, quoted from a survey on 108 HOS courts, said that 53 out of the 72 questionnaires returned were reluctant to join the scheme. One of the reasons was the high cost of bins. In this connection, HD through Government Supplies Department had identified a tenderer who quoted $1,500 for three bins and encouraged the courts to contact the manufacturer direct.
22.The Chairman said the progress was encouraging and requested HD to update Members on their plan in one years' time. BD(M), HD invited this Council to visit one of the ARCS plants and the Chairman suggested a date after Christmas.
Agenda Item 5 : Situation Report on Aircraft Noise
(Ace Paper 44/98)

23.The Chairman welcomed PEPO(NM&PG), EPD, CPO, CAD and SEO, CAD to the meeting, and invited CPO, CAD to introduce the paper.
24.Being affected by the flight path, a Member remarked that the aircraft noise was a nuisance although not a problem but he had got used to it.
25.In response to a Member's query, CPO, CAD said that the residents living in North Point were not seriously affected by aircraft noise during operations at Kai Tak, but they were now. Since Runway 07 had only been in operation for several weeks, they needed more noise measurements before determining how serious the problem was. To another query from that Member, PEPO (NM&PG), EPD replied that the Government and the Airport Authority (AA) had offered two solutions to the residents in Sha Lo Wan where the NEF exceeded 25. One solution was to insulate and air-condition their houses. The other was to compensate those in licensed structures for voluntary clearance in accordance with the existing policy. In reply to that Member's query, he said that there were about 150 households in Sha Lo Wan, all of whom were eligible for the insulation plus air conditioning package.
26.A Member asked and CPO, CAD replied that there were 0.76 million residents exposed to NEF25 during the operations at Kai Tak. Compared to less than 200 residents affected at present, that Member considered it a great improvement.
27.Although the number of complaints had dropped significantly after the first two weeks of airport operation, DEP raised the concerns of certain residents in the Peak area about the aircraft noise which was loud enough to interrupt their normal conversations and wake them up even with windows closed and air-conditioners in use. In view of this, he asked what controls CAD/AA had on airlines departing from the nominal flight paths and whether the use of the Lamma Channel could be brought forward from midnight to the evening period. CPO, CAD said that in response to the public's concern, the following measures to reduce the noise impact of Runway 07 operation had been implemented by CAD :

(i) aircraft departing on Runway 07R during 0001 - 0700 hrs would use the southbound route via the Lamma Channel; and
(ii) aircraft departing to the southeast using Runway 07 after 10:30 p.m. would remain on the nominal track until they had reached the height of 7000 ft, after that they might be required by the air traffic controller to follow the instructed routes for reasons of flight safety and better utilisation of airspace.

He said that to use the Lamma Channel before midnight would have a negative impact on the utilisation of airspace and the overall capacity of the airport.
28.To elaborate on the representative of CAD's statement, SEO, CAD gave a presentation on the new airport flight paths. He explained that the hills on Lantau Island, Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and at Tai Mo Shan, as well as flight paths to/from the adjacent Macau and Shenzhen International Airports imposed severe constraints on the flight paths of Hong Kong's new airport. Consequently, the airspace available to Air Traffic Control (ATC) for marshaling arriving and departing aircraft in a safe and orderly manner was limited, and was mainly confined to the south and southeast of the new airport. The Runway 07 departure flight path via the Lamma Channel would unavoidably conflict with arrival flight paths to the south of Cheung Chau Island. ATC would therefore have to control the aircraft flight paths as well as their climb and descent profiles to ensure flight safety. Such traffic conflictions would invariably incur restrictions on aircraft operations which would impact on the system capacity.
29.The Chairman was concerned whether the problem would be aggravated when the dual runway came into use. CPO, CAD assured him that both the segregated mode and integrated mode had been included in the EIA study, and the noise impact would be as forecasted in the EIA report.
30.Noting that there were complaints from the residents on the Peak, DEP doubted if all airlines were following the instructions and asked if there were any sanctions against those who deviated from the nominal flight paths. SEO, CAD confirmed that the aircraft were not allowed to deviate from the nominal paths without permission.
31.The Chairman said that it was not a question of safety, but noise impact, and so asked for guidelines for safe distance from hill tops. CPO, CAD replied that the safety height was 4,500 ft and they had already pushed up the height by another 2,500 ft, which should be more than adequate to minimise the noise impact.
32.Following up DEP's previous question on using the Lamma Channel, a Member asked what the percentage of use of the airport was after midnight. CPO, CAD replied that the scheduled movements allowed per hour was 37, but after midnight, there would be only a few movements.
33.A Member suggested that CAD should report data of the number of aircraft deviating from the nominal paths and the refined NEF to the Council in the future. The Chairman then requested CAD to report in mid-1999, after the new airport had been in operation for one year.

Agenda Item 6 : Control of Indoor Air Pollution
(ACE Paper 45/98)

34.The Chairman welcomed PAS(E)1, PELB, PEPO (APG), EPD, SOH, LD, MD, EHS and Consultant, EHS to the meeting. PAS(E)1, PELB, PEPO(APG), EPD and MD, EHS briefed Members on the background of the study, the findings, and the proposal to control indoor air pollution respectively.
35.The Chairman was concerned about the health and safety of the people working in those offices detected with sub-standard indoor air quality (IAQ). MD, EHS replied that 30-40% of the 40 offices surveyed were considered to have IAQ problems, but none of them were uninhabitable. Although the names of the offices could not be disclosed, each and every one of their owners had been given a report with recommended mitigation measures.
36.MD, EHS, in reply to a Member's query, explained that Germany had not been included in the study because there were sufficient information obtained from various other countries. Due to limited resources, countries with information readily available in English had been given priorities in the study.
37.A Member commented that as the report was done in a toxicological approach rather than a public health one, it should be modified so that all walks of life could easily understand the importance of individual air pollutant as significant health hazards in Hong Kong. He agreed with the consultants that a precautionary approach should be adopted, but the priorities of mitigating or improving the IAQ should be set right. Also, some of the recommendations were somewhat ambiguous. For example, the Code of Practice (CoP) stated that tobacco smoking "should be prohibited for indoor air quality reasons where susceptible individuals are present". However, in terms of public health, everyone should be classified as susceptible. According to some studies, 45-50% of the workforce was exposed to tobacco smoking, which had not been included as susceptible individuals in the CoP. For another example, there was evidence that asbestos and radon were not imposing significant health risk in Hong Kong, but they were given much attention in the CoP. He believed it would be misleading to the public if these were part of the future education programme.
38.PAS(E)1, PELB noted that Member's comments and concurred that a consultation document should be user-friendly. He assured Members that it was Government's intention to issue a consultation document, which would set out in layman's terms the general approach taken by the government, and at the same time attaching a more detailed CoP to provide solid guidelines to building management and industries. MD, EHS elaborated that IAQ concerns were not so much the building related diseases which were identifiable with a causing agent, e.g. legionnaire's disease, which was well under control. It was Sick Building Syndrome which were problems which could not be identified specially medically. These symptoms were known to affect workers' productivity and comfort and improvement in indoor air quality would bring economic benefits. She also agreed that they had done the study in a toxicological approach and supplemented that they had prioritised the various pollutants in view of the practicability to control the use of it, not the degree of health risk caused by that particular pollutant. For example, CO2 was not the single factor causing sick building syndrome. However, controlling its density by improving the ventilation system and adjusting the proper number of occupants in an area would solve much of the problem.
39.A Member asked if any comparison had been made between Hong Kong's MTR concourses and those in the US. MD, EHS said that the CO2 concentration measured at MTR concourses during rush hours was within the safety standard for subways which was 5,000ppm/m3. Since the passengers were only exposed to this concentration for a short period of time, there should not be any major health hazard. In addition, the consultants had already discussed with MTRC and identified several pragmatically rectifiable concourses which MTRC agreed to consider.
40.The Chairman was concerned about the present position of IAQ in the premises with susceptible groups. PAS(E)1, PELB said the intention of setting up the Inter-departmental Management Group was to tie-in with the studies being done or done by other departments/authorities on those premises. The Management Group would keep in view the progress of these studies and take into account their findings when formulating the Indoor Air Pollution Programme.
41.In response to a Member's query, MD, EHS said that all building materials and furniture were potentially toxic which could contribute to indoor air pollution, but only some should and could be controlled, for example, urea formaldehyde in particle boards. The government had been discussing with Customs & Excise Department to work out means to control their importation.
42.A Member asked and MD, EHS replied that the cumulative synergistic effect from chemicals was difficult to measure because it was quite unpredictable as to how the chemicals would react inside human bodies.
43.The Chairman asked whether the consultants had talked to the Housing Authrotiy (HA) on good practices to improve IAQ as they built over 50% of all buildings in Hong Kong. MD, EHS said they had been discussing with HA on this issue (excluding residential premises) and in fact, the headquarters of HA was the only building in Hong Kong which was formaldehyde-free. PAS(E)1, PELB supplemented that the study stated that the government would cooperate with other parties to initiate public education and publicity programmes to promote good practices to maintain IAQ standards. In response to a Member's query, he said that the CoP would encourage industries to use environmental-friendly building materials.
44.A Member said that most new buildings were designed to comply with the required air change. The problem with filters in the air conditioning system was a management problem and not a design problem. He also pointed out that the IAQ could not be improved if the ambient air quality remained bad. He recommended that a cost and benefit analysis should be done before deciding on any plan/strategy.
45.PAS(E)1, PELB assured Members that the government would work closely with the Council, LegCo and the public in formulating a comprehensive IAQ management programme within 1999. They would brief the Council on the programme once they had finalised it.

Agenda Item 7 : Introducing Liquefied Petroleum Gas Taxis on a Large Scale
(ACE Paper 46/98)

46.The Chairman welcomed PEPO(MV), EPD to the meeting and invited PAS(E)1, PELB to brief Members on the background of the trial and PEPO(MV), EPD on the findings of the trial.
47.In response to the Chairman's query, PAS(E)1, PELB said that they were aware of the existence of the trading of illegal diesel oil. However, in comparing the operating costs between LPG taxis and diesel taxis, it would not be appropriate to compare their list prices with the prices of illegal diesel oil. He was optimistic that the switch to LPG would not result in fare increases because together with the oil companies, they were aiming at maintaining the operating cost of an LPG taxi comparable to, if not less than, that of diesel taxis.
48.A Member asked if the Administration would consider tax exemption for LPG during the introduction period, and whether they would negotiate with the oil companies to lower the LPG price (which was at $3.88/l) so that it became more comparable to that in China ($2.00/l). PAS(E)1, PELB said that the Government had been in discussion with the oil companies but they had not yet decided on the LPG price. The Government maintained an open view and would listen to the views of the community on the need and extent of any financial incentive.
49.A Member suggested there should be dis-incentives for using diesel by increasing tax on it. The Chairman and DEP pointed out that this would be an unjustifiable measure which might only 'encourage' the use of illegal diesel oil.
50.A Member highlighted that one of the excuses for not switching to LPG taxi would be the insufficient number of filling stations, and asked whether the Administration had considered land in reclaimed areas. PAS(E)1, PELB responded that they had been trying to identify more sites for such stations but it was not an easy task to put an LPG filling station in the congested urban area. In this regard, they had identified 62 potential sites of which half of them were located in urban areas. The oil companies had been asked to suggest more. He said that it would be more important to ensure the provision of the stations at strategic locations throughout Hong Kong. He also confirmed that Planning Department and Territory Development Department had been asked to identify possible sites in reclaimed areas, but those lands would be available only in the longer term.
51.A Member was concerned that it might take too long for all diesel taxis to switch to LPG if the existing taxis were not retrofitted but just waited for them to be phased out gradually. PAS(E)1, PELB said that it was important to maintain the operating cost of LPG taxis at a low level so that there would be sufficient incentives for the taxi trade to switch to LPG taxis sooner rather than later. PEPO(MV), EPD supplemented that although the life span of a diesel taxi was about 5 to 7 years, the maintenance cost would increase when the vehicle became older to a point where the taxi operators would find it better to switch to LPG taxis. Besides, according to overseas experience, retrofitted LPG vehicles had poor performance in emission, operation and safety aspects. DEP supplemented that under existing technology it would not be practicable to retrofit a diesel taxi with an LPG engine.
52.In response to a Member's query, PEPO(MV), EPD said that using LPG vehicles would reduce the NO2 emission as well as respiratory particles. This was supported by comprehensive emission test data provided by the suppliers of the LPG taxi on trial, which were summarized in Table 1 of the consultation document. A recent study by London Bus and City Diesel also suggested that LPG was the option to solve both NO2 and respiratory particles pollution occurring at the same time.
53.Noting the 18,000 taxi fleet at the moment, a Member enquired about the number of new registrations per year. PEPO(MV), EPD said that normally there were about 200 new registrations per year for replacing old in-use taxis, but the number had decreased recently because of anticipation of the coming LPG scheme. PAS(E)1, PELB said that there could be around 5,000 diesel taxis switching to LPG taxis during the first year of implementation of the scheme.
54.A Member asked and PEPO(MV), EPD confirmed that the global warming potential of the emissions from an LPG vehicle was less than that from a diesel vehicle. Noting that Europe and Japan had been promoting a newly designed diesel vehicle which was 30% more efficient and emitted less particulates than the existing ones, that Member alerted the Administration that the taxi trade in Hong Kong might use it as a tactic to delay the LPG scheme. Another Member clarified that the new design would not eliminate particulates altogether as would LPG, but would emit ultrafine particulates which would lead to health problems in human tissues. PEPO(MV), EPD said that they were aware of the new technology and was confident that it was more beneficial for the diesel taxi to switch to LPG taxi because diesel engines could not generate few particulates as LPG engines in the foreseeable future. A major drawback of diesel engines was that its emissions would increase through its lifetime. PAS(E)1, PELB supplemented that since the major road side pollution problem came from respiratory suspended particulates, the government was determined to tackle the problem as soon as possible.
55.A Member asked if there would be licensing control over garages and mechanics for repairing LPG vehicles. PAS(E)1, PELB and PEPO(MV), EPD confirmed that there would be regulations controlling the maintenance and repair works of the parts related to LPG fuel systems of LPG vehicles.
56.The Chairman said the Council was generally supportive to the LPG scheme and urged the Administration to step up smoke emission tests and other interim measures to mitigate the road side pollution.
Agenda Item 8 : Any Other Business

Tentative Schedule of Work for ACE in 1998

57.Members noted the tentative schedule which was tabled.
The new bureau
58.DS(E), PELB briefed Members that a consultation document previously put out to the public proposed a reform of the municipal councils and the creation of a new bureau on environment and food hygiene. In this connection, a new advisory committee was being set up to be responsible for the food hygiene aspect. He assured Members that this Council would remain unchanged and would not overlap with the new committee; the only change would be that they would report to the new Secretary for the new bureau. The new bureau was expected to be established by end 1999 and the new departments might be set up in early 2000. He said that the Administration was working on a framework to develop a more sustainable city. To help achieve this, the environment would be given a voice o



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